No, I didn’t copy: The copy versus mutual inspiration debate
Thursday, February 19th, 2009Today I decided I was going to choose my top 5 or 6 blogs that I was going to make an effort of keeping up on. There’s so many blogs out there, but I really don’t have time to keep up on ALL of them. Amongst my top ones to read, I remembered about my early whirl wind romance with Information Architects and realized I hadn’t seen any of their stuff since over a year ago, when I got their last web trend map.
The subject of woe
So, onto their site I went, and imagine my nervous disappointment when I saw their baroque-style frame on their homepage and from WAY last year at the same time (it’s dated 03/08). Now, I have a similar type of frame on my homepage.
Would you say that I copied Information Architects?
Is it even a close call? Probably not. But then, when IS it copying?
There has been a lot of debate on the copying of web designs recently. The most famous one is for Made by Elephant maker, Max Voltar. He created this cute little website as a little contact form.
Soon there were those ripping off his site so blatantly, that they actually left his email address in the contact details, changed none of the code etc (I can’t find the site copied version anymore… maybe it’s been taken down? If someone knows it, can you add it to the comments? I’d be very grateful). Others have written that they are inspired by other people’s web work but there still seems to be a thin line.
Picasso says, “Good artists copy. Great artists steal.”. Those who copied Tim’s website as well as another who copied others’ style were dealt swift retribution on twitter and were asked to take their sites down. Some who were merely inspired were embarrassed into removing their content.
Is it, Isn’t it? Where is the line?
But what happens when you legitimately have a similar idea? There are examples abound about people coming up with VERY similar things at the same time. If there is such a thing as collective intelligence, how can we say with certainty that it is stealing, especially if the idea is well executed and thought out? As in every stylistic era, there are methods and treatments that get used over and over again. And with web trends and styles running so close together, can we, with certainty, say that we were the first to come up with something? Some say “Nothing is new anymore.” I am getting to the point where I really think things have all been done before.
So… am I a copier??
When I decided to use the gilded frame on safetygoat, I had a vision of an old-fashioned circus (and the music… na, na dadedam nadam nam noah! *that’s circus music, fyi).
I wanted a mixture between old, decorative and circus-like, and new-funky. I even think I’m still in the process of refining it. In this case, Information Architects was using it to make the point that we glorify everything we do on the web and think we’re so great. In a way, that’s what my frame does too, I guess.
So, where’s the line? Even though I claim I didn’t see it, have I ‘copied’ information Architects because we’ve used the exact same element? Even if I DID see it, can I stand accused of plagiarizing their idea? Some companies have trademarked a certain pantone colour as their own, and using a certain sort of treatment on a website is just as distinctive!
What do you think? Have I copied? Where IS the line?
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I think your right about everything having been done before (well probably mostly everything) but when it comes to copying I believe as an illustrator, that for it to be a true case of plagiarism, every line and detail has to be correct to the original. Everyone has lots of ideas running through their heads and it’s just inevitable that some of these ideas will be similiar. That’s the way I look at things anyways.
As for your picture frame. I’m pretty sure I have seen this idea at other places too. I don’t have any links though, unfortunately. I wouldn’t worry about it, it’s a picture frame, to frame your work. It’s a solid idea that works and I can definetly remember when I first visited this site that my first thought wasn’t, “Oh, I’ve seen that frame done so many times before”, rather it was “Cool frame, cool work. I wanna see more”.
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Agreed mark, but what if say, someone took one of your character drawings, copied the face but had the body say, sitting, rather than running? Every line isn’t the same, but the overall feel of the character is the same…
Yeah, I agree with mark. I’m seeing the “Everyone is out to rob me” attitude pop up more and more on teh internets and, in all honesty it’s starting rub me up the wrong way.
Certain high-profile web designers (mentioning no names), upon seeing a site that looks kinda like theirs, even to the extent where certain portions of a graphic may be erm… borrowed, instantly throw a gigantic hissy fit and demand that the site is taken down and the person who’s site it is is made a fool of. I’m not saying that this isn’t sometimes the correct way to go with it (If they’re directly affecting your revenue stream then you must take action) but they need to keep things in perspective.
If I were in their position my first course of action would be to asses just how much of a threat this person was to my business. Are they making money, and if so is it money that should be in my pocket? I bet the majority of cases pose no threat what so ever.
As for your picture frame; The frame is different, your site is different. You’ve done enough to prove you’re original. Don’t sweat the small stuff.
@kassy I’m not to sure, to be honest. I think I would be flattered that someone wanted to copy my stuff. But would still send them an email telling them to stop it.
It’s the danger of posting my work to the internet I guess, that someone could come along and copy it.
Hi Kassy! The ones that blatantly copied it are (almost) all offline. I enjoyed trashing them on Twitter, but some just won’t learn:
Ben Jacob doesn’t understand that copying icons and changing them to grayscale is unacceptable. UncleMonkeyTech.com still shows some parts he “stole” (he was mad as hell when I emailed him asking to take down the rip).
Of course there are others, who are inspired, and made something totally different. Some examples include Tyler Galpin and Rogie King. I’m really honored by these ones, as they are somewhat tributes to my original version.
Thanks tim for your comment. I remember laughing (in shock) when I first saw the examples. I’m glad you’ve got (most of) them taken down now. I had also seen Rogie’s example– he’s a fantastic designer, so he doesn’t have to copy to make it look nice. I guess that’s the difference… the young kids starting out couldn’t take it as just inspiration because they couldn’t design very well yet! I think Tyler cuts the line quite close, but he is able to acknowledge his inspiration sources in the footer. If you were more sensitive, I think you could say it’s a bit too close for comfort.
Interesting article and interesting discussion. I was a little surprised to see that you felt I was cutting the line quite close. Drafting up my design in photoshop, I was very careful to ensure that the last thing I could be accused of would be copying or “stealing.”
Surely, we can agree that Rogie’s site and mine are both inspired by Tim’s albeit different takes on it. I think mine could look similar due to the fact that it is set in silver. However, when can we explicitly say that one designer has ripped off another? I mean, aren’t all design trends and web trends started by one person feeling inspired by another’s work?
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for your comment. I don’t think you’re copying, per say, but you have to agree that when I look at your site, I immediately think of Tim’s site, and I’m almost required to open them up side by side and take a look. I think you’re absolutely right– it’s because of the silver, it’s because of the squarish logos (especially on the social networks). I can say with certainty that you didn’t copy, my point was that with design trends running so close together, it is possible for someone to come up with a similar design to Tim’s without seeing it. You could even say that Tim could also put “Inspired by Apple” at the bottom of his site.
Web trends are just that–trends. I think it’s really nice that both you and Rogie acknowledged influence from Tim, but WHERE is the line? If you had done yours the same width, or had the same slide-up and down, would have it been too close for comfort? In this case, Tim has just made a judgement call. He *could* say you copied, but he’s a reasonable guy who understands the difference between inspiration and copying.
@TimVanDamme are you seriously freaking out that Ben Jacobs site has the flickr/twitter/facebook logos converted to grayscale and that somehow is a ripoff of you?
I don’t understand how you can lay claim to being the only one that can use those logos.
And as for the swipe effect… that just reminds me of flash websites.
I do really like your application of the contact form. It is quite well done.
I actually thought it was mobileme or apple for a minute, which shows how clean it is.
Hello guys, I was quite late (Actually lazy) to comment here..
btw let me say who I am… I’m Ben Jacob (The suspect !-according to Tim) Since I was late.. I got some more comments (thoughts) here, about RIPPING and INSPIRATION… According to some people ripping is a term used to define ‘take something partially or completely’ and Inspiration is a term used in a positive aspect of RIP “where suspect copies whole idea and changes the label” and the victim says I’m proud being my idea is copied by someone else..
A/c to me Inspiration or Rip have same Meaning, but depends on the situation it happened and people it related with.
If Tim is still hanging on the same branch he got, I have to say that http://benjacob.in ’s Navigation is INSPIRED by Panic / Coda
and the icons I used in my current design is inspired by Apple iPhone OS icons, and logos are taken from original websites it related with ! I think we should continue this topic as much as possible to avoid further crimes or misunderstandings or by correcting each others doubts.. I’m 18 – Less experienced than everyone who talked here.. So I would like to hear from you, and correct myself if i got anything wrong with me
Hey ben,
Thanks for your comment…. I think Tim was right to call you out on your logos– it does look like you’ve grabbed his logos and just grey-scaled them. I took them into photoshop, and did a “multiply overlay” and they’re the same size, the logos inside are exactly the same, the spacing is the same. They are, in fact, the same. I think, if you had redrawn them yourself, had a different size, then YES, definitely, Tim does not own the right to all Twitter logos in rounded cornered boxes with nice little gradients and borders.
You’re right that they are ALL inspired by apple, but I would strongly suggest you to go back and make your own, so there will be no question about ripping over inspiration. You are young, but you don’t want to start your career pissing off other designers. We’re a very small group of people at the end of the day and it’s best to keep relationships good.
I come across this problem in my work (design) and in my freetime (music) a lot.
I could do a quick analogy. For example, if a musician copies a song note for note and then uses the same vocal melody over the top of it, this is just plain stealing. In the examples you mention it sounds like someone has been guilty of this.
But then for example you’ll hear a little nuance in a new song that has been done before, a drum fill, a little guitar rhythm or riff. I have heard this countless times before, and it’s more of a nod of recognition towards an artist or song. Another example of this is when artists quote another song in their own lyrics.
It’s important to keep a perspective on everything. With the sheer amount of pages online, no-one can claim to have seen them all. I also believe that as design is a questions and answers type of creativity, the correct answer is likely to lead to the odd site and even elements of those sites looking the same. If the creative reasoning behind the visual is good then subtle nuances will probably negate any
The other question here is one of notoriety and size. Although it is not right, there are some pub artists who have had their songs ripped off by accident and on purpose in the past, but they garnered almost no attention, yet the Coldplay vs Satriani saga created worldwide response. It doesn’t make any one less valid but it shows that it goes on at all levels, deliberately and more often not deliberately.
In reference to your own site, I don’t even consider it an issue at all. First of all yours is a portfolio slider rather than an image, and it relates to your work rather than an article. Second, would you have even considered this if you weren’t aware of the impact and influence of the iA people on your own design development?