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	<title>Comments on: No, I didn&#8217;t copy: The copy versus mutual inspiration debate</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/</link>
	<description>The goat loves the water</description>
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		<title>By: Steve D</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-219</guid>
		<description>I come across this problem in my work (design) and in my freetime (music) a lot.

I could do a quick analogy. For example, if a musician copies a song note for note and then uses the same vocal melody over the top of it, this is just plain stealing. In the examples you mention it sounds like someone has been guilty of this. 

But then for example you&#039;ll hear a little nuance in a new song that has been done before, a drum fill, a little guitar rhythm or riff. I have heard this countless times before, and it&#039;s more of a nod of recognition towards an artist or song. Another example of this is when artists quote another song in their own lyrics.

It&#039;s important to keep a perspective on everything. With the sheer amount of pages online, no-one can claim to have seen them all. I also believe that as design is a questions and answers type of creativity, the correct answer is likely to lead to the odd site and even elements of those sites looking the same. If the creative reasoning behind the visual is good then subtle nuances will probably negate any 

The other question here is one of notoriety and  size. Although it is not right, there are some pub artists who have had their songs ripped off by accident and on purpose in the past, but they garnered almost no attention, yet the Coldplay vs Satriani saga created worldwide response. It doesn&#039;t make any one less valid but it shows that it goes on at all levels, deliberately and more often not deliberately.

In reference to your own site, I don&#039;t even consider it an issue at all. First of all yours is a portfolio slider rather than an image, and it relates to your work rather than an article. Second, would you have even considered this if you weren&#039;t aware of the impact and  influence of the iA people on your own design development?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I come across this problem in my work (design) and in my freetime (music) a lot.</p>
<p>I could do a quick analogy. For example, if a musician copies a song note for note and then uses the same vocal melody over the top of it, this is just plain stealing. In the examples you mention it sounds like someone has been guilty of this. </p>
<p>But then for example you&#8217;ll hear a little nuance in a new song that has been done before, a drum fill, a little guitar rhythm or riff. I have heard this countless times before, and it&#8217;s more of a nod of recognition towards an artist or song. Another example of this is when artists quote another song in their own lyrics.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to keep a perspective on everything. With the sheer amount of pages online, no-one can claim to have seen them all. I also believe that as design is a questions and answers type of creativity, the correct answer is likely to lead to the odd site and even elements of those sites looking the same. If the creative reasoning behind the visual is good then subtle nuances will probably negate any </p>
<p>The other question here is one of notoriety and  size. Although it is not right, there are some pub artists who have had their songs ripped off by accident and on purpose in the past, but they garnered almost no attention, yet the Coldplay vs Satriani saga created worldwide response. It doesn&#8217;t make any one less valid but it shows that it goes on at all levels, deliberately and more often not deliberately.</p>
<p>In reference to your own site, I don&#8217;t even consider it an issue at all. First of all yours is a portfolio slider rather than an image, and it relates to your work rather than an article. Second, would you have even considered this if you weren&#8217;t aware of the impact and  influence of the iA people on your own design development?</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-205</guid>
		<description>Hey ben,

Thanks for your comment.... I think Tim was right to call you out on your logos-- it does look like you&#039;ve grabbed his logos and just grey-scaled them.  I took them into photoshop, and did a &quot;multiply overlay&quot; and they&#039;re the same size, the logos inside are exactly the same, the spacing is the same.  They are, in fact, the same.  I think, if you had redrawn them yourself, had a different size, then YES, definitely, Tim does not own the right to all Twitter logos in rounded cornered boxes with nice little gradients and borders.  

You&#039;re right that they are ALL inspired by apple, but I would strongly suggest you to go back and make your own, so there will be no question about ripping over inspiration.  You are young, but you don&#039;t want to start your career pissing off other designers.  We&#039;re a very small group of people at the end of the day and it&#039;s best to keep relationships good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey ben,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment&#8230;. I think Tim was right to call you out on your logos&#8211; it does look like you&#8217;ve grabbed his logos and just grey-scaled them.  I took them into photoshop, and did a &#8220;multiply overlay&#8221; and they&#8217;re the same size, the logos inside are exactly the same, the spacing is the same.  They are, in fact, the same.  I think, if you had redrawn them yourself, had a different size, then YES, definitely, Tim does not own the right to all Twitter logos in rounded cornered boxes with nice little gradients and borders.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that they are ALL inspired by apple, but I would strongly suggest you to go back and make your own, so there will be no question about ripping over inspiration.  You are young, but you don&#8217;t want to start your career pissing off other designers.  We&#8217;re a very small group of people at the end of the day and it&#8217;s best to keep relationships good.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-198</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-198</guid>
		<description>Hello guys, I was quite late (Actually lazy) to comment here.. 
btw let me say who I am... I&#039;m Ben Jacob (The suspect !-according to Tim) Since I was late.. I got some more comments (thoughts) here, about RIPPING and INSPIRATION... According to some people ripping is a term used to define &#039;take something partially or completely&#039;  and Inspiration is a term used  in a positive aspect of RIP &quot;where suspect copies whole idea and changes the label&quot; and the victim says I&#039;m proud being my idea is copied by someone else.. 

A/c to me Inspiration or Rip have same Meaning, but depends on the situation it happened and people it related with. 

If Tim is still hanging on the same branch he got, I have to say that http://benjacob.in &#039;s Navigation is  INSPIRED by Panic / Coda
and the icons I used in my current design is inspired by Apple iPhone OS icons, and logos are taken from original websites it related with ! I think we should continue this topic as much as possible to avoid further crimes or misunderstandings or by correcting each others doubts.. I&#039;m 18 - Less experienced than everyone who talked here.. So I would like to hear from you, and correct myself if i got anything wrong with me ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello guys, I was quite late (Actually lazy) to comment here..<br />
btw let me say who I am&#8230; I&#8217;m Ben Jacob (The suspect !-according to Tim) Since I was late.. I got some more comments (thoughts) here, about RIPPING and INSPIRATION&#8230; According to some people ripping is a term used to define &#8216;take something partially or completely&#8217;  and Inspiration is a term used  in a positive aspect of RIP &#8220;where suspect copies whole idea and changes the label&#8221; and the victim says I&#8217;m proud being my idea is copied by someone else.. </p>
<p>A/c to me Inspiration or Rip have same Meaning, but depends on the situation it happened and people it related with. </p>
<p>If Tim is still hanging on the same branch he got, I have to say that <a href="http://benjacob.in" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/benjacob.in?referer=');">http://benjacob.in</a> &#8217;s Navigation is  INSPIRED by Panic / Coda<br />
and the icons I used in my current design is inspired by Apple iPhone OS icons, and logos are taken from original websites it related with ! I think we should continue this topic as much as possible to avoid further crimes or misunderstandings or by correcting each others doubts.. I&#8217;m 18 &#8211; Less experienced than everyone who talked here.. So I would like to hear from you, and correct myself if i got anything wrong with me <img src='http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Kiers</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Kiers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-197</guid>
		<description>@TimVanDamme are you seriously freaking out that Ben Jacobs site has the flickr/twitter/facebook logos converted to grayscale and that somehow is a ripoff of you? 
I don&#039;t understand how you can lay claim to being the only one that can use those logos.
And as for the swipe effect... that just reminds me of flash websites. 

I do really like your application of the contact form. It is quite well done. 
I actually thought it was mobileme or apple for a minute, which shows how clean it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TimVanDamme are you seriously freaking out that Ben Jacobs site has the flickr/twitter/facebook logos converted to grayscale and that somehow is a ripoff of you?<br />
I don&#8217;t understand how you can lay claim to being the only one that can use those logos.<br />
And as for the swipe effect&#8230; that just reminds me of flash websites. </p>
<p>I do really like your application of the contact form. It is quite well done.<br />
I actually thought it was mobileme or apple for a minute, which shows how clean it is.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-196</guid>
		<description>Hi Tyler,
Thanks for your comment.  I don&#039;t think you&#039;re copying, per say, but you have to agree that when I look at your site, I immediately think of Tim&#039;s site, and I&#039;m almost required to open them up side by side and take a look.  I think you&#039;re absolutely right-- it&#039;s because of the silver, it&#039;s because of the squarish logos (especially on the social networks).  I can say with certainty that you didn&#039;t copy, my point was that with design trends running so close together, it is possible for someone to come up with a similar design to Tim&#039;s without seeing it.  You could even say that Tim could also put &quot;Inspired by Apple&quot; at the bottom of his site.

Web trends are just that--trends.  I think it&#039;s really nice that both you and Rogie acknowledged influence from Tim, but WHERE is the line?  If you had done yours the same width, or had the same slide-up and down, would have it been too close for comfort?  In this case, Tim has just made a judgement call.  He *could* say you copied, but he&#039;s a reasonable guy who understands the difference between inspiration and copying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tyler,<br />
Thanks for your comment.  I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re copying, per say, but you have to agree that when I look at your site, I immediately think of Tim&#8217;s site, and I&#8217;m almost required to open them up side by side and take a look.  I think you&#8217;re absolutely right&#8211; it&#8217;s because of the silver, it&#8217;s because of the squarish logos (especially on the social networks).  I can say with certainty that you didn&#8217;t copy, my point was that with design trends running so close together, it is possible for someone to come up with a similar design to Tim&#8217;s without seeing it.  You could even say that Tim could also put &#8220;Inspired by Apple&#8221; at the bottom of his site.</p>
<p>Web trends are just that&#8211;trends.  I think it&#8217;s really nice that both you and Rogie acknowledged influence from Tim, but WHERE is the line?  If you had done yours the same width, or had the same slide-up and down, would have it been too close for comfort?  In this case, Tim has just made a judgement call.  He *could* say you copied, but he&#8217;s a reasonable guy who understands the difference between inspiration and copying.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler Galpin</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler Galpin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-195</guid>
		<description>Interesting article and interesting discussion. I was a little surprised to see that you felt I was cutting the line quite close. Drafting up my design in photoshop, I was very careful to ensure that the last thing I could be accused of would be copying or &quot;stealing.&quot; 

Surely, we can agree that Rogie&#039;s site and mine are both inspired by Tim&#039;s albeit different takes on it. I think mine could look similar due to the fact that it is set in silver. However, when can we explicitly say that one designer has ripped off another? I mean, aren&#039;t all design trends and web trends started by one person feeling inspired by another&#039;s work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article and interesting discussion. I was a little surprised to see that you felt I was cutting the line quite close. Drafting up my design in photoshop, I was very careful to ensure that the last thing I could be accused of would be copying or &#8220;stealing.&#8221; </p>
<p>Surely, we can agree that Rogie&#8217;s site and mine are both inspired by Tim&#8217;s albeit different takes on it. I think mine could look similar due to the fact that it is set in silver. However, when can we explicitly say that one designer has ripped off another? I mean, aren&#8217;t all design trends and web trends started by one person feeling inspired by another&#8217;s work?</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-193</guid>
		<description>Thanks tim for your comment.  I remember laughing (in shock) when I first saw the examples.  I&#039;m glad you&#039;ve got (most of) them taken down now.  I had also seen Rogie&#039;s example-- he&#039;s a fantastic designer, so he doesn&#039;t have to copy to make it look nice.  I guess that&#039;s the difference... the young kids starting out couldn&#039;t take it as just inspiration because they couldn&#039;t design very well yet!  I think Tyler cuts the line quite close, but he is able to acknowledge his inspiration sources in the footer.  If you were more sensitive, I think you could say it&#039;s a bit too close for comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks tim for your comment.  I remember laughing (in shock) when I first saw the examples.  I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;ve got (most of) them taken down now.  I had also seen Rogie&#8217;s example&#8211; he&#8217;s a fantastic designer, so he doesn&#8217;t have to copy to make it look nice.  I guess that&#8217;s the difference&#8230; the young kids starting out couldn&#8217;t take it as just inspiration because they couldn&#8217;t design very well yet!  I think Tyler cuts the line quite close, but he is able to acknowledge his inspiration sources in the footer.  If you were more sensitive, I think you could say it&#8217;s a bit too close for comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Van Damme</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Van Damme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-192</guid>
		<description>Hi Kassy! The ones that blatantly copied it are (almost) all offline. I enjoyed trashing them on Twitter, but some just won&#039;t learn:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://benjacob.in/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ben Jacob&lt;/a&gt; doesn&#039;t understand that copying icons and changing them to grayscale is unacceptable. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.unclemonkeytech.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;UncleMonkeyTech.com&lt;/a&gt; still shows some parts he &quot;stole&quot; (he was mad as hell when I emailed him asking to take down the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxvoltar/3214894205/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;rip&lt;/a&gt;).

Of course there are others, who are inspired, and made something totally different. Some examples include &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tylergalpin.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tyler Galpin&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://rogieking.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rogie King&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;m really honored by these ones, as they are somewhat tributes to my original version.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kassy! The ones that blatantly copied it are (almost) all offline. I enjoyed trashing them on Twitter, but some just won&#8217;t learn:</p>
<p><a href="http://benjacob.in/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/benjacob.in/?referer=');">Ben Jacob</a> doesn&#8217;t understand that copying icons and changing them to grayscale is unacceptable. <a href="http://www.unclemonkeytech.com/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.unclemonkeytech.com/?referer=');">UncleMonkeyTech.com</a> still shows some parts he &#8220;stole&#8221; (he was mad as hell when I emailed him asking to take down the <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/maxvoltar/3214894205/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.flickr.com/photos/maxvoltar/3214894205/?referer=');">rip</a>).</p>
<p>Of course there are others, who are inspired, and made something totally different. Some examples include <a href="http://www.tylergalpin.com/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.tylergalpin.com/?referer=');">Tyler Galpin</a> and <a href="http://rogieking.com/" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/rogieking.com/?referer=');">Rogie King</a>. I&#8217;m really honored by these ones, as they are somewhat tributes to my original version.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-191</guid>
		<description>@kassy I&#039;m not to sure, to be honest. I think I would be flattered that someone wanted to copy my stuff. But would still send them an email telling them to stop it.

It&#039;s the danger of posting my work to the internet I guess, that someone could come along and copy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kassy I&#8217;m not to sure, to be honest. I think I would be flattered that someone wanted to copy my stuff. But would still send them an email telling them to stop it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the danger of posting my work to the internet I guess, that someone could come along and copy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/2009/02/no-i-didnt-copy-the-copy-versus-mutual-inspiration-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/?p=238#comment-190</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I agree with mark. I&#039;m seeing the &quot;Everyone is out to rob me&quot; attitude pop up more and more on teh internets and, in all honesty it&#039;s starting rub me up the wrong way. 

Certain high-profile web designers (mentioning no names), upon seeing a site that looks kinda like theirs, even to the extent where certain portions of a graphic may be  erm... borrowed, instantly throw a gigantic hissy fit and demand that the site is taken down and the person who&#039;s site it is is made a fool of. I&#039;m not saying that this isn&#039;t sometimes the correct way to go with it (If they&#039;re directly affecting your revenue stream then you &lt;em&gt;must&lt;/em&gt; take action) but they need to keep things in perspective.

If I were in their position my first course of action would be to asses just how much of a threat this person was to my business. Are they making money, and if so is it money that should be in my pocket? I bet the majority of cases pose no threat what so ever.

As for your picture frame; The frame is different, your site is different. You&#039;ve done enough to prove you&#039;re original. Don&#039;t sweat the small stuff. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I agree with mark. I&#8217;m seeing the &#8220;Everyone is out to rob me&#8221; attitude pop up more and more on teh internets and, in all honesty it&#8217;s starting rub me up the wrong way. </p>
<p>Certain high-profile web designers (mentioning no names), upon seeing a site that looks kinda like theirs, even to the extent where certain portions of a graphic may be  erm&#8230; borrowed, instantly throw a gigantic hissy fit and demand that the site is taken down and the person who&#8217;s site it is is made a fool of. I&#8217;m not saying that this isn&#8217;t sometimes the correct way to go with it (If they&#8217;re directly affecting your revenue stream then you <em>must</em> take action) but they need to keep things in perspective.</p>
<p>If I were in their position my first course of action would be to asses just how much of a threat this person was to my business. Are they making money, and if so is it money that should be in my pocket? I bet the majority of cases pose no threat what so ever.</p>
<p>As for your picture frame; The frame is different, your site is different. You&#8217;ve done enough to prove you&#8217;re original. Don&#8217;t sweat the small stuff. <img src='http://www.safetygoat.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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